Mailers (spam?).... has the bottom dropped out?

[Evil Chris]

Did you ever send out a mailing to promote another website? Maybe your own site... maybe a site for someone else's program to which you have a traffic agreement, or maybe just purely for profit to a site that pays you well?

Most of us can say we've been involved in this sort of thing, and when asked, we all say "yeah, my list is double opt-in, triple opt-in..."

Does it matter anymore if your list is double or triple opt-in? And how do you know for sure, unless you have collected the emails yourself from an opt-in situation that you are in total control of?

The reason I ask, is because it seems that no matter how clean we think our mailing lists are, they are getting more problematic (spam complaints, de-activated accounts, etc..) and yes... they are getting much less profitable.

So how much longer will spam remain profitable? Even if you say your list contains emails of people who "asked to receive this material" that still doesn't mean that they can change their mind and suddenly report you to whoever or whatever ISP will give you the most grief.

Here's an article that predicts Spam Expected to Outnumber Non-Spam in the very near future:
http://www.atnewyork.com/news/article.php/1555831

And if you don't think the penalties for spamming are bad... think again and read any one of the articles contained on this page:
http://www.internetnews.com/index.php/4491

[Bree]

Great Thread!!

I dunno who, but one of the boards I signed up with added me to a spam list... and now my netpond email is getting spam and that has never happened before. it's a real pain..

I know for a FACT that I never agreed to get more spam.. I'm careful about the forms that I fill out.. at least I should know better..

But shame on the board that sold my address!! :bad mood:

[StuartD]

Hmm... tough call.
I don't have much of a problem with spam personally.

It's that spam you get in hotmail that bugs me... the ones that have the subject "hey, here's the information you asked for" and it's selling penis englargement or viagra or something.

My thoughts are... if you have to trick someone into reading your spam, they probably don't really want it!!


As for spam coming from adult webmasters... I don't know. I think porn people have it rough... because every one wants porn, but no one will admit it, so they get all emberrassed and mad if it shows up in their in box.

At the same time though... I really hate it when I go somewhere, sign up, and suddenly have spams and junk mail from all 4 corners of the globe. Selling my email address to people, just to make a few cents is so not cool. If I wanted penis enlargement pills, I'd go to my doctor.

[sonomasnap]

I have serious doubts about the effectiveness of adult email marketing. Unless you own the list and are marketing to MEMBERS, I think it is largely a waste of money.

[Phoenix]

Wow looks like Direct marketing may have to adapt to survive and prosper amid all the new regulations which are sure to be enforced.

Although it does look more like they are focusing on the people who are actually ripping people off. some mailers have their own agenda and they are screwing themselves over...i still think that if you are receiving mass volumes of "unsolicited email" you have signed on somewhere as i have accounts which dont receive any

I believe that most people in our industry offer a real and enjoyable service/product which the consumer enjoys.

I hope that by policing ourselves we can set our industry apart and not get lumped in with the flagrant misleading of the consumer.

[NOTR]

E-mail marketing or SPAM, sells and there's no doubt about it.

I have been in and around the "shady" part of the business for well over 3 years and I haven't seen a drop in productivity. What I have seen is every kid on the block jumping onboard thinking it's a goldmine.

Abusing other people’s resources, exploiting relays etc... You want to mail and keep it legitimate then you should honour your removes, mail through your own server and keep it as clean as possible.

I have my fingers in a few things and spam is one of the most profitable, it's a part of business and we have to live with it.

:D

[Cathedra]

Good point, I agree that any kind of spam is spam, and personally speaking the few times I have actually clicked on a promotional email was either out of astonishment, or curiosity, but it never led me to purchase or sign up to anything.

::-|

[Ronaldo]

Chris,

We send out a weekly newsletter with all of our content updates. Our opt out is right at the top of the page, so it's the first thing you see. That appears to be the most important thing with spam complaints. As soon as someone hits that button, I MANUALLY remove them from our mailing list so no mistakes are made.

On several occasions we have been approached to BUY more emails or to advertise for someone else IN our newsletter. We simply refuse this every time. Our newsletter is strictly for our promotional purposes and ONLY goes out to our past and present clients.

To the best of my knowledge, we haven't received any spam complaints. (Since I've been with Xamo :D )

I personally get about 100 spam emails per day. If I have the time I'll unsubscribe from them, but on most days I don't. The ones that annoy me are the ones that ask you to reply and then they bounce back with an unknown mailbox. Those fuckers should die.

Ron

[PMGames]

I have not really ever put together an organized optin mailing program so I can't comment about that.

What I do know is when I signup myself for certain things to see what they are about and then regret that I did because it never opt's you out of their program even their fake opt out page, etc.

I have made it a habit as well to use alias e-mails for certain sites so I can see how they sell and resell my information to others as well.

I might sign up for x site, so I will use x as my username@mywebsite.com that helps me in tracking since I don't allow any e-mail to bounce.


I have been caught up on the never ending opt out on naughtymail like forever, so if anyone knows any tricks with them please let me know. lol.

[bryany]

Well there sure are a lot more complaints going around, and now that people have the ability to send the email to a complaint department with just one click of a link (yahoo for example) more and more sites are going to be redflagged...

[Ronaldo]

Originally posted by PMGames
What I do know is when I signup myself for certain things to see what they are about and then regret that I did because it never opt's you out of their program even their fake opt out page, etc.

I have made it a habit as well to use alias e-mails for certain sites so I can see how they sell and resell my information to others as well.


Good point Paul, and one I forgot to mention.

We also REFUSE to trade or sell our mailing list as well.

[Special_K]

Chris...you have opened a touchy subject but one that is very important with the release of recent reports saying that in 2003 spam will be larger than regular (non-spam) email. We can thank a small handful of people for this. As our industry continues to mature it becomes more and more important to practice good business.

To answer your question Chris, yes, it matters if your list is double-opt in. It also matters how you treat that list. For example just because it is double or triple opt in does not give you the right to blow the snot out of this list whenever you want. Actually, it probably does, but that's just not good business in my mind. The emails on your list should be treated with the utmost respect. This means remove them if they want to be removed (don't add them to a remove list and swap/sell..again bad business)

Sure mailings are becoming less profitable, but you can maximize your list$ by being smart about how and when you send them. Things change, but double opt-in mailings will always be a part of doing business in the online world, just like TGPs, AVS, search engine optimization, etc.

Hell look at our conventions...setting up a booth and spending a fortune on flyers, parties, and models doesn't return the kind of revenue it once did. With the lower return one must be smarter thats all, and personally I think the industry needs a dose of ethics. Our industry will always be the 1st to be targeted (VISA, Acacia, obscenity etc) so conduct yourself according to the risk you want to be exposed to.

Do business with people/companies who practice good business...its simple.

word to your mommy!

K

[Kenny B]

I have a somewhat decent list only 250,000 addy's and I’ve done quite well promoting various programs. I can’t say it’s all double opt-in (90%opt-in), and I do get some complaints but I make sure to put my “disclaimer” and get very few spam cop complaints. Because most sponsors don’t accept spam I send an email to the company who I’m promoting prior to sending my mail and let them know it’s a double opt-in list and they may get a few complaints but it’s not spam. So far I have not been shut down from any partner plans but I have a small list compared to most. For the work that goes into sending a mailer it’s still profitable for me!

If any of you have a good program and don’t mind me pimping it out through my list drop me a line ken@vipmembers.net

[Sly]

I don't really have much to add... but the "direct marketing" that really drives me crazy is the ones that use something in the title that people would actually send me.

For example, "a new offer for your website". Well damn, I almost HAVE to read those. It actually COULD be about my website, even though it usually isn't.

It's frustrating to say the least, the trickery involved. I wouldn't mind it so much if the titles were "honest"... but let's get real, who's honest anymore? :(

[Bestat]

I also send out a montly newsletter about my content updates to clients that have purchased before and those that asked to be on the mailing list. I also have a double opt-in newsletter for surfers on Anime and Toons. I get minimal results from both. :) The remove link is promient (sp) on the email, and as of yet, I have never had a complaint. But I do as Ronaldo, and manage the list's myself, so I know that anyone asking to be removed is. I also NEVER utilize the lists for anything other than what they signed up for.

I think that getting out a global message is getting harder to do without ticking someone off, and I do believe that even when they opt-in for a list, most delete the email without reading it. As for receiving spam...seriously I get about 200 spams a day, 30% of those are adult and the rest mainstream.

[twinkley]

Hi Guys,

Funny this thread should be started since we just had this very problem pop-up. We have been sending double-opt-in mass mailers for well over 3 years now. Does it make a diff. whether it is double opt in or now when mailing? YES IT DOES.

There is a big difference in sending spam and doing a dedicated mailer to an opt-in list. It is impossible nowdays to send anything opt-in that you havent checked personally yourself and here is why.

We normally do NOT buy email addresses. Too much fraud involved and there is no way to check to make sure the people actually signed up for this. But, a couple of months ago we bought several million email addresses from someone we trusted in the industry. We were assured that all the lists were 100% clean and double opt in. So, we send this list to our own sites to check it and HOLY SHIT! We had SO MANY spam complaints our host threatened to shut us down. Sooo... that list got banned from being sent to. Unfortunately, it was NOT deleted,

Well, last week we decide we want to throw some decent traffic at this awesome program. We set up the mailer and send it out - unfortunately the BANNED list got sent to and once again we were dealing with quite a few spam complaints. (much less than before, but still quite a few) The program shut us down right away.

Luckily, I happen to be pretty tight with one of the guys in the company, so I have to go to him and beg and plead to get our account turned back on. How embarrassing. Now I know that we arent dirty spammers, but how bad does this look? If this had been someone mailing us, we would have shut them down too!

The fact of the matter is, unless you are collecting the email addresses yourself and sending something that confirms they want it, you are taking the risk of being labeled a spammer. Nobody likes spammers.

As far as profitability goes, I think that it will continue to go downhill until something can be done to clean up the ACTUAL spam in everyones mailbox - I know I lose emails that I ask for (newsletters and such) because I have SO MUCH spam, it all gets tossed.

I think in order to "prove" the member requested the email service, you will need to be able to prove they signed up for it - if you are doing double-optin you should be able to prove this through their confirmation making it almost impossible for them to say "I didnt ask for this"

twinkley

[AcidMaX]

Although I don't send spam, I do collect double opt-in e-mails from my own sites. With the software that I wrote, I collect things from the user when they single & double optin, like IP, timestamps, user-agent etc. This way if someone needs proof they have it. I typically use these e-mails for a 2nd attempt to get them to join my sites since I collected them from the site in the first place. I do not send e-mails and if someone asks to be removed...they are simply removed.

I do however know people who do this full time and make good money off of it. (Neighborhood of 200-300 signups day.) One actually furnished his house with things he received from affiliates he promoted. I think the thing that bothers me the most, is that most affiliate programs say they are against spam, but send it anyway or even hire people to send it for them, or turn a blind eye to it.

I also think e-mails can still be profitable if used properly. In many instances cheaters will use tools to pull e-mails off of message boards and other areas and use those instead of double-optin methods. I think most of it is that users are just getting smarter. Just as the "pros" like to signup for trials, then cancel, then signup again, then cancel. These people know how to get free porn, so they run around all the sites to get free porn in their e-mail and they do it to their hotmail accounts so wife-poo doesnt find out.

An now for Jerry Springers final thoughts :)

I think that if you run your optin campaign like some due (including me) where you are open and upfront with the people you send mail to about how to be removed from the list and you send it to people who double opted into your list, and treat them with respect, and don't send 3 e-mails a day for 3 months, you will have people respect that. I think anymore anyone who enters their e-mail address expects to get "spam", its how you deal with it that makes it better imho. The people who brutalize my inbox with e-mail I never requested 30 times a day with "I got a secret website" messages...should just be shot. And the bad thing about adult webmaster spam, is that most of these guys that do it, if you try to remove yourself, your e-mail doubles because now they know they have a keeper.

These are just my thoughts though.

Andy

[StuartD]

Ok... if someone does a "double optin" to what ever it is that a site is offering... and then gets emails from them... that's spam... requested spam.

But then that site goes and sells that list to some other site at a nice high price because it's "double opt-in" and therefore are qualified buyers.

But, that person didn't "double opt-in" for what that other site has. They didn't even single opt-in for that site to have their email address at all.
That makes it some spam that's kinda hard to swallow.

Sure it works, gets the job done... but whether or not it was opt-ed in 50 times, it's still an email that's being sent from someone that you never gave your email address to in the first place.

[shok]

Email marketing can be extremely profitable as alot of you know, which of course brings out all the uglys just like anything else.

Running the mailers for Wegcash/Join4free is a learning experience everyday. We have worked so hard for longevity in mailing by being up front and honest. If a user unsubs, they get unsubed. We try to keep the lines of communication open with companies like AOL etc. which is incredibly important. If someone complains that they got spammed, we can produce all information on that user.

It is getting harder and harder yes because you have so many using harvested lists and such and turning people off all together from email marketing. Im sure its only going to get worse and worse before it gets better.
I cant ever see email marketing going away though. Its an instant connection with a buyer, and some people actually do enjoy the daily newsletters and offers. The people that dont though, can really go out of their to let you know how much they hate you. They will go on and on and threaten you every way they can. I always love showing them all their join info after exchanges like that lol

[SykkBoy]

All of the major players in the early days made their fortunes with email traffic. Most won't admit it now though.

While spam traffic isn't as profitable as it used to be, it is still profitable. A good double opt-in list is some of the best quality traffic there is.

The biggest problem is that you have a lot of inexperienced guys buying those bullshit cdroms for $100 and spamming everyone on those cdroms (which most of those lists are several years old).

Can you really be sure someone mailing for you is using pure doubl opt-in emails? Nope, unless you've collected them yourself. You just have to trust the person doing your mailings.

If a mailer is sending you 100 signups a day and only a handful of complaints, are you going to get pissed about it? I know a couple mail guys who can send 200-300 signups per day. Would anyone openly turn that down if the complaint rate is 1%?

I think everyone needs to draw their own moral guidelines and stick with what THEY feel comfortable with.

I'm often asked if we accept email traffic and the answer is "yes". Does that mean we take spam? Not really. We take double opt-in email traffic and if someone can show how they collect the emails (for example via an email collection box) we will consider taking the single opt-in. We won't take harvested email traffic because it's too hard to tell who's on the other end, it causes more complaints and just isn't as good quality-wise. Each program has their own guidelines and policies regarding this. I don't knock those who take blatant spam anymore than I'd knock those who will take no mail traffic whatsoever.

Do I find spam annoying? yes, but I don't get as upset about it as most people do (or seem to). Do I find targeted email annoying? hell no. If I have certain likes and dislikes and someone emails me regarding a product or service that is related to what I like, I'm happy. Hey, I didn't have to search all over the fucking place to find this product.

I think the reason most people get pissed at spam (other than the 300+ emails ;))) is because they feel like their intelligence is being insulted if they are being marketed to. They feel like everyone will take them for a sucker if they...gasp...got marketed to. Hell, yeah, market to me. I'm not a sucker, but give me something that reflects my interestes and I'm a fucking buyer. These days I've made more purchases via email links than I have clicking on flashing, blinking, shiny banners....

[Special_K]

it just pisses me off to see a bunch of emails come in and then find out that its the same bloody mailing! If I am not going to click your ad the first time sending it to me 2 or 3 more times will not help! I have numerous emails coming into my inbox but it blows me away to see people not remove duplicates. Even if you sign up to a newsletter or service countless times using the same email address, you should only be recieving 1 notice per send.

My favorite spams are the ones from main stream companies that tell you that your site can be better optimized for search engine placement.

Oh reeeeaaalllllyyyyy......I actually took the time and phoned one of these companies and grilled them with questions re. link popularity, meta structure, changes at google etc...they weren't even in the league! :o

If you have a list, make sure you know a little about it! Marketing 101.

[CumSensei]

Personally I would never spam.

Ok so I might add a few links to my gallery aprove emails but thats it.

I do not think its fair to spam someone.

Thats it.

And it´s a bitch to end up at some damn list sold allover the place.

[Zebra]

To outsiders the line between double opt-in and straight spam is a fine one. I have seen so many complaints from people that I KNOW are legitimate double opt-ins yet still complain. Maybe a guy signed up for a 4free site on his wife's email account and she starts getting complaints and knows she did not sign up for anything and the husband SWEARS he didn't. So a complaint is sent even though there is a remove link. Many surfers have heard that remove links are a joke and just a way for spammers to confirm that email is active so they don't bother using it. Some hate spam enough to report it to Spam Cop or an ISP if they know how to look that up.
I don't think the productivity in mailings has decreased significantly, but I do think that the amount of complaints is rising for those who do mail. Hosts and sponsors are killing accounts for those who they do not know. I have hosts and sponsors who I use that know I am mailing legit addresses I have collected myself and not outright spamming. I haven't had an account closed yet and I am pretty sure any complaints I have had were few. Keeping in contact with those who may be affected by your mailing is a good way to protect yourself. Removing people who cancel is a definate must.
Some of the free email companies are getting aggressive with dealing with spam. Some of their measures may be overkill. Hotmail is now using software called Brightmail that is supposed to be stopping spam cold. I signed up for several 4free sites last week from various 4free programs and haven't received mailings to the Hotmail account I created to track them. I created a Yahoo account at the same time and DID receive mailings to that address. Hotmail makes up a huge chunk of the addresses of people that receive mailings. That income just got cut off. I expect we will see more software being developed that will kill spam AND legitimate mailings. Of course I am sure someone will come up with a way to get around those roadblocks. If they do, drop me a line ;)

[twinkley]

Stuart,

You said " Ok... if someone does a "double optin" to what ever it is that a site is offering... and then gets emails from them... that's spam... requested spam." But that is the exact opposite of what spam is. Spam is the nick for UCE - UNSOLICITED commercial Email. By definition if someone signs up for it, its not spam. Spam is only getting commercial email you didnt ask for. Now technically that means if you email me about biz thats SPAM - but reality dictates its not. - its biz.

Shok - I really really need to talk to someone over at WEG about mailers - can you please have someone ICQ me - 72099798. Been trying to get ahold of jordan through RRRED but no avail :)

[Darin]

If you have your own double opt in. I don't see why you would get excessive spam complaints. As long as the person knows the message is coming from you and there are clear links to be removed.

Buying email lists is up in the air for sure, would stay away from that if you care about a long term program.

[StuartD]

Originally posted by twinkley
Stuart,

You said " Ok... if someone does a "double optin" to what ever it is that a site is offering... and then gets emails from them... that's spam... requested spam." But that is the exact opposite of what spam is. Spam is the nick for UCE - UNSOLICITED commercial Email. By definition if someone signs up for it, its not spam. Spam is only getting commercial email you didnt ask for. Now technically that means if you email me about biz thats SPAM - but reality dictates its not. - its biz.


I know, I'm just playing devil's advocate.
What a dictionary describes as spam, and what a person sitting at home describes as spam, can be two different things. Which is why people complain.

Like Darin said, if you send to your own double opt-in, there should be no reason for complaints. But there still are.

I for one don't think there should be either. You double opt-in, you there for are saying "send me junk mail"... you asked for it.

For the most part, if you double opt-in, I say too bad... so sad. You're getting what I send ya.

But if I get emails from someplace that I've never been to before, because that site that I double opt-in'ed to sold my addy, then I'd be ticked.

I could never sell someone's email address when I so totally am 100% against people selling mine. I couldn't bring myself to be that hypocritical or two faced. Just my opinion.

[twinkley]

Oh, same here.

I have at least 3 people weekly ask me to sell our lists. NO WAY! If you want to buy a mailer, im more than happy to help you, but I am not selling off someones info so you can do god-knows-what with it.

No thanks!

twinkley

[Zebra]

Many sites that collect emails have a line in their terms stating that they have the right to sell or trade any address they collect. But of course the surfer doesn't want to read the terms, he just wants to get his free porn. That is where a lot of the trouble with trading lists comes from. Most people who signup for free shit don't know who the hell the mailings are from anyway. They just think it is all spam, even the shit they signed up for. Just have to deal with it, it is nothing personal.

[MarkTiarra]

Ronaldo is doing it right from what his post says. Kudos.

Keep in mind the FTC isn't going after spam blindly - it's going after MISLEADING advertising and people misusing trademarked logos and such. For a long time email advertising hasn't followed the same rules of "truth in advertising" that every other facet of the sales world has had to follow.

My personal opinion about spam is that, while annoying, I'd rather get that then get paper junk mail which is using paper resources. That said, I did eventually close down a 5 year old email address that was my primary because I was getting upwards of 500 spam per day to it. I get bothered by emails that say I requested the information when I plainly didn't. Viagra ones are the best... I need something to SLOW DOWN my boner rate, not give me more! lol.

I actually have an email address on AOL that I set up for my son because I wanted the name for him when he got old enough to logon. I only ever logged on when I started the account then never touched it again. One day while using the swith screenname feature I saw it had an email. Went there and it was an adult spam. So either AOL sold addresses or it was more likely mined through some software hack. Either way that sucks.

If you buy email addresses that say they are opt in - who knows if the seller is being truthful. Even an honest guy may have bought addresses from someone he thought was honest to add to his list and then you buy from him and get crap addresses.

Anyway - do things like Ronaldo's post says and I doubt you'll face any legal peril.

[ARiA]

when I get into the office I usually have around 75-100 crap emails to deal with- talking toilet-paper, viagra, mini rc cars (hate those guys), if you unsubscribe they simply change their identity-
If I ever used the word spam (I generally dont like the term) that to me is spam because it is not sent to anyone with ANY interest in what they are offerring-
I believe that sending out an email from one buisness to another for the purpose of sharing information should be acceptable- BUT there is a thin line..
there is always someone that's going to call it "spam"
what is and is not acceptable?

PS. anyone know why they call it spam instead of sardines or vienna sausage?? :confused: :bonk:

[Brad Mitchell]

Definitely a good thread!

It truly does not matter very much if your list is opt-in or outright spam. Obviously, one that is opt-in will receive far less complaints but that is no protection.

Generally speaking, hosting companies have a certain threshold for spam complaints that go to their upstream bandwidth provider. The more bandwidth a host purchases, the more complaints a network might accept. When I say network I mean the actual connectivity from companies like Verio, Level3, Qwest, Sprint, Global Crossing, etc.

I know on Verio, the network that I am on, people used to be able to pay extra for the privledge of spamming. I have never been involved in it but have had friends that were spammers and they paid upwards of 10x the market rate for bandwidth so that they would be allowed to spam.

However, Verio and some other networks have cut off major spamming operations. Some of you might have noticed that a few adult hosting companies are no longer on their network and now you know why.

What I find totally obnoxious is SpamCop. These motherfuckers are a terrible nuisance. They don't even care if it was an opt-in list. As a hosting company, I sometimes get complaints from them when my customers do their small mailings. They demand a response and don't even give you the option to say that it was a legitimate mailing.

That's my 2 cents..

Brad

[MarkTiarra]

ORIGIN OF THE WORD "SPAM" (in relation to Net abuse):

http://www.templetons.com/brad/spamterm.html

[twinkley]

Aria,

Only 75-100?? You are doing goood!

My real email to spam ratio is at about 300:1 right now.

Support email for our sites is way worse - closer to a 500:1 ratio

terrible...

twinkley

[RedShoe]

All I know is that I get at least .. AT LEAST.. 200 spam emails a day. I don't read a single one.

I check my mail, wait for all of them to download, select them all and delete them all. I only check it so my server doesn't overload with email.

I had to set up a yahoo account, that no one but my wife and some family and only a few friends know about. I'm about a year into it, and I may have had one or two yahoo spams but that was about it.


I fuckin' hate email now. I check my fucked up accounts about every other day, and my yahoo chimes in when I get an email so I only check that when it notifies me.

There have been times when I will go thru all my shit mail and remove my name off thier lists, but it doesn't matter. My addresses have been going around for so long now I must be one some CD's and lists that get traded daily.

I hate spam. I hate email. I think all spammers should be put to death. No punchline, no jokes, I think they should all die. I think everyone in their families should get cancer and die. Their offspring, fuck 'em... ALL DEAD. I want thier houses burned to the ground. Their dogs, DEAD!!!

That said... if it still makes money.. hook me up, I want a piece of that pie. Anyone know where I can get a few lists and some bulletproof hosting? I think this "Dick-B-Bigger" shit really works, and I want to sell it to the entire world!!! MUAHAHAHAHA

[shok]

Originally posted by ARiA


PS. anyone know why they call it spam instead of sardines or vienna sausage?? :confused: :bonk:


Vienna sausages, these things have to be the most vile thing ever put on earth. Just looking at that jelly layer on top makes me shiver and gives me the chills.
Is it even meat? Or just parts of this and that scraped off the floor and grinded into tiny weeners?

[RedShoe]

Originally posted by shok
Vienna sausages, these things have to be the most vile thing ever put on earth. Just looking at that jelly layer on top makes me shiver and gives me the chills.
Is it even meat? Or just parts of this and that scraped off the floor and grinded into tiny weeners?

Don't knock it, 'til you try it.
Same as pussy. Some of it looks pretty nasty, but you still put your tongue in there.

Ok, try this. (It will convert you) Get yourself a can of Vienna sausages, and slice them from top to bottom in half. Then lay them on a slice of bread. You should have just enough to fit on a single slice of bread with maybe just one slice left over. Place another piece of bread on top, to create a Vienna Sausage sandwich. You can add toppings, but I think a V.S. sandwich taste perfect plain.

Eat it. MMMMmmmmm Vienna Suasage Sandwich.....

[DragonKing]

Well,
I've got alot to say on this great thread so bare with me :)

First off, to answer Aria's question as to how spam got it's name,
it comes from a Monty Python skit where the word "Spam" is repeated over and over to the point of total annoyance - as does email Spam.

That's the best explanation i've heard so far anyway.

As far as the bottom dropping out , it's inevitable for it to become less profitable then it once was , expecially now since Hotmail, Yahho and MSN are putting in really strcit filters. Aol was always hard to get into unless you had some accounts to waste but there are ways around that as well.

What's happening now is, people are using their original clean lists to the point that they no longer can convert a free giveaway and then they are reselling them tenfold. This has been happening for a long time now and these lists are outmumbering the new fresh ones. Plus anyone with a real good clean list is hording them until theyare worthless at which point they selll for a nice proffit.

Personally I wouldn'y buy a list from anyone for any price because you dont know where its been or what kind of heat comes from it.
Emailing is still a great source of fast sizeable income if the right products are marketed.

I was the originator (in my best Al Gore impression) of mailing out Ebay Secrets and Build Your Own Website amongst others and now, everyone and their mother's have their own rippoff or mockup. Do i still mail mine? no. I am constantly creating new products that remain sellable no matter how bad a list is.

It's like anything else in this biz, run a clean ship, opt in your email list and make sure they have a way to opt out. There are a few fortune 500 mainstream companies still proffiting from mailings. RedVNetwork, one of the largest mail out my products as well as others, never having one sinngle product of their own, yet they have the sweetest opt in lists you can imagine!!

I personally stay away from mailing porn sites. Their are too many chances to offend even an double opt in and get heat from it.
It will be interesting though to see how fast emailers come up with solutions for the new spam blockers. I' sure it will happen..it's just a matter of time.

:asleep: :asleep: :asleep: :asleep:

[sherie]

I figure I get just as much spam/junk mail in my mail box. It's unsolicited just the same as the 1 million spam emails that I get in my hotmail account. Either way, it's going to be around forever, or it will come to a sudden end.

I am more pissed with all of the wasted paper in the mail box, or at that dumbass that can't find the mail box and leaves it outside to rot in the snow....(obviously not as pissed that children are recieving these emails, because some ass has not done his/her homework)

Spamcop, now who the hell gives them the right to do what they do? A pain in the ass they are. IMO

[ElvisManson]

There have been a lot of good points made already in this thread...both Zebra and sykkboy have hit the nauil on the head.

Speaking from personal experince, with Python running naughtymail, I can tell you that we get spam AND spam cop complaints from people that have opt'd-inthrough the double opt in process.

With a list as large as our we queue up mailers 3 days in advance and people that have opted out still get mailer from us for a few days. This is stated in very explicit terms during the opy-out process...but we get complaints anyway...and I love that spamcop has the tendency to mutiply ( exponentially I think sometimes) the number of complaints they send out.

I run the Dollar Machine affiliate program for Python take a LOT of double opt in mailer traffic, quite a bit of it from people who post here and i know that they legitimately collect their e-mails through a double opt-in process...but still get up to 10 spam cop complaints a day when they mail the list to my sites.

Do I treat them as spammers?....Hell no.

As Zebra mentioned the line between spam, single, double and triple opt-in e-mails gets very blurry as defined by the people receining the mail.

In the end it boils down to a trust issue for me.

And from what i have seen based on our mailing operations ( double opt-in) there has been no decrease in profitability....but we have had to constantly allow our business model to change with what our clients and the people receiving our mailings want.

:)

[ARiA]

Originally posted by MarkTiarra
ORIGIN OF THE WORD "SPAM" (in relation to Net abuse):

http://www.templetons.com/brad/spamterm.html


Thanks! there is alot of neat history/info there...
and now I know :p

[Tam]

Originally posted by NOTR
E-mail marketing or SPAM, sells and there's no doubt about it.

I have been in and around the "shady" part of the business for well over 3 years and I haven't seen a drop in productivity. What I have seen is every kid on the block jumping onboard thinking it's a goldmine.

Abusing other people’s resources, exploiting relays etc... You want to mail and keep it legitimate then you should honour your removes, mail through your own server and keep it as clean as possible.

I have my fingers in a few things and spam is one of the most profitable, it's a part of business and we have to live with it.

:D

I couldn't have said it better myself, Notr..... honestly. I have been on the HOSTING end of this and the only complaints we would get that came directly to us were those people who didn't honor the removes and remove them and instead keep hammering them with it.

Mailings are VERY profitable, if it is done right and with as much respect as you can do it with. If someone who opted-in wants to opt-out, then respect that. Those who don't mind it won't complain and you can weed out the ones that don't want it. I don't mind a little spam sometimes, it's part of it, same as junk mail in my mailbox out in the yard.... but when I ask to be removed from a list and am not taken off, I get REALLY nasty about it and could frankly give two shits who the person is that is spamming me...... if they don't respect my wishes then I show them no respect.

Bottom line is that it is VERY profitable...... but do it reasonably like Notr says here. Abuse it and lose it I always say. ;)

[Tobbe]

Hello chris!
i dont think i can say to much in this thread. because i have never been involved to this.. but my friend does some kind of "spamming" and he tells me all the time that its getting more bad every day!

so i guess it will be less and less money in this. Yes.

Greetings Tobbe.
See ya all more in a few weeks.!!!
very busy!

[krosh]

So i sat here and i read all the posts...hmmmmmm!

Here is my 2 cents worth. I have been involved and am actively involved in dealing with email lists. Anyone that says profitability has gone down is VERY wrong.

The big problem has been mentioned several times here. Active remove lists. the people that purely sapm have not a clue how to manage an email list. You must remove people that want to be removed and NEVER mail them again. We as internet users think that spam is worthless casue we never would buy anything that is being advertised, but when one of my campaigns makes $11k in one day, i can't say that it is not performing. ::-|

single opt-in double-opt in, triple opt-in..all this means is that the surfer agreed to see YOUR stuff. They will still complain, not as much as a list that you buy on those get rich quick programs on the net ( 60 Million email addys for a $1 :D :D ) but they will complain.
I think it is not fair to say that we as email marketers can not send mail.

As mentioned here before, Junk mail in the mail box at my house gets more crap that I never asked for than anywhere else. Why is it fair for those people to advertise and not for email guys??? i'll tell you why!

Cause the government doesn't make any money off emails. SO they are going to want to step in. Believe me when i say this, spamcop is a good thing. It is in place to show the government that the internet can police itself and it does not need a government helping hand.

In closing, as an email marketer, remember to remove people that don't want to see the crap you are selling, and remember that you can make more money off surfers in a small list that opens compared to using all the resources necessary to mail say 20Million emails that are going to bounce and cpmplain, not to mention the amount of bandwidth that's necessary o mail a list like that.

And that's all i got to say about that .

[TDF]

well my take on this is have your own email remote box. This seems to work soo much better than just buying some emails that will get you in trouble. Not only that,but we only associate with ethnic sites so anyone who sees an email from us it is in our niche area. I think site reputation and surfer comfort has a lot to do with it also

[-=HUNGRYMAN=-]

Spam .... Mmmmmmmmm !!!!

<bgsound src="http://www.paulspics.com/misc/spam.wav">

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by krosh
Cause the government doesn't make any money off emails. SO they are going to want to step in. Believe me when i say this, spamcop is a good thing. It is in place to show the government that the internet can police itself and it does not need a government helping hand. Do you really think that the government cares whether or not the internet is able to police itself? I don't. If it makes money, and there is a way to tax it, then the government will do that. But I'm a bit off topic.

While I agree that email marketing isn't necessarily wrong if executed properly, it irks me to get spam complaints from clean lists due to the reasons some people outlined above. The poor practices of some are ruining the above-board practices of many others.

[DragonKing]

here is something to chew on:
http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/legalissues/story/0,10801,76821,00.html

::-| ::-| ::-| ::-| ::-|

[XxXotic]

spam is spam no matter how ya look at it, no matter what form it takes it's still spam. I don't send out mailers, not even to the members of my resource site, who when signing up, opt-in to receive one. It's just not worth the hassle to me or worth the risk should someone choose to forward me to spamcop or something because they don't remember signing up to my site.

As for whether or not i'd ever buy a list to do it with, no. anyone with an email extraction bot can make a list of 5million email addresses and claim they opted in 15 times, how can you prove they did or didn't? that's the problem behind buying these opted email lists, can't really prove they did or didn't opt in. Last thing anyone in this biz needs is heat for spamming, this industry is scrutinized enough as it is. Why add to the fire?

[Tafkap]

I use to send lots of mass-mailings to my partners about new infos, websites, promo stuff or just to say hi!...

But in the subject line, i try to write something "personal" to them, and let them know it comes from their sponsor... and it ain't no spam...

Never received any complaints for the moment but it's true Spam sucks...

:bonk:

[heqdvd]

If you go to message rules in outlook6,

and set a few custom ones, takes 3 mins and I have some already set up if any one needs...

i can block about 75% of all the spam.

i send out promo e-mails, but always have a real, simply unsubscribe line and really delete people from lists i make. but the lists i make are all from addresses posted on-line

[heqdvd]

Originally posted by MarkTiarra
ORIGIN OF THE WORD "SPAM" (in relation to Net abuse):

http://www.templetons.com/brad/spamterm.html
That's a good info quote...

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by DragonKing
here is something to chew on:
http://www.computerworld.com/governmenttopics/government/legalissues/story/0,10801,76821,00.html

::-| ::-| ::-| ::-| ::-| DK... Maybe I'm in left field, but isn't 7 million just a drop in the pond when looking at the big picture here?

I see a lot of posts saying that "targetted email marketing" is not only still effective, but still very profitable, and will continue to be so. I have my doubts.

But I don't want to confuse mailing to opted in's versus mailing to members of a specific service. For example, when I send out the xnations newsletter twice a month, I am not selling anything. I am simply passing on information about a service to which the addressee uses. There is a big difference.

[DragonKing]

Originally posted by Evil Chris
DK... Maybe I'm in left field, but isn't 7 million just a drop in the pond when looking at the big picture here?

I see a lot of posts saying that "targetted email marketing" is not only still effective, but still very profitable, and will continue to be so. I have my doubts.

But I don't want to confuse mailing to opted in's versus mailing to members of a specific service. For example, when I send out the xnations newsletter twice a month, I am not selling anything. I am simply passing on information about a service to which the addressee uses. There is a big difference.

---------------
Ahhh,
with all do respect my friend,
I think I noticed mention of sponsors in your newsletters.
A newsletter is just a different way of cooking spam.
More palitable I guess
:)
Look at my sig? subliminal spam?

[Evil Chris]

True enough... Sponsors pay for exposure in such things, and if you were a sponsor, you'd expect it too.

Yours isn't as subliminal as it is clever.... LOL
(did you forge Aly's signature?) haha

[RMS]

It doesnt exist yet.. but when it does.. I will be in line to sign up on day 1.


Cooked Spam (http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,56788,00.html)


I didn't see this posted in this thread... sorry if it's a repeat.


::-|

[heqdvd]

Good article.

(lots of readers here)


like this:

"pushing low mortgage rates and anatomic enhancements by e-mail,"

isn't it always a variation of one of those!

[Evil Chris]

I'll be on http://www.talkhardradio.com/ today at 5pm eastern talking about this if you have time to tune in and listen.
Cheers.... Chris

[heqdvd]

Hey there just got back in and missed that one,

is it every thursday? the radio show?

[Hashishan]

Originally posted by ARiA


PS. anyone know why they call it spam instead of sardines or vienna sausage?? :confused: :bonk:

perhaps because there isnt much meat in spam

[Mister X]

Okay here's my question. Can you actually buy a list of double opt in addies and still say that it's opted in? Maybe I missed a previous post explaining this. I've heard several different opinions on this. It seems obvious that an opt in to one list probably isn't valid for anything except that original list. Am I missing something here? And exactly how do you keep records to prove that these people opted in in the first place in case you need to produce the evidence some day? :confused:

[Mister X]

Oh yeah. Just out of curiosity... If someone wants to try a mailer with our Quebec Cuties cash program... Check out the program and our site and give me a shout if you want to talk deal. We don't pay 40 dollars per signup but it's a new site so it seems to me that it should do pretty good. And it's entirely possible we can haggle a bit over the payout percentage. I'm really quite interested in seeing how well it would do.

Oh yeah... PSW says it has to be opt in! Hehe.

[twinkley]

People legally sell their lists by putting a disclaimer on the page where the surfer puts their email address in that says something like

"by signing up for this service, you agree to allow us, or ANY OF OUR PARTNERS to send you email at this address, we reserve the right to sell your email to pertinant advertisers..blah blah blah"

I think this sucks - if I sign up for something - it means I want that - not something from someone you SOLD my name to!

twinkley

[heqdvd]

Yes she's right on that one.

By the way:

what is

WANADOO.FR

(obviously from france)

been getting repeated "underage" spam from there OVER AND OVER:

like this -
Some later they'll know adult life.
Some later the'll see a real world with tears and dirt.

Some later they'll know a taste of sexual kisses and fill the wild passion of fall...
Now they're living in other world and fill themselves good and happy.
Pure nice and complitely beautifull creations living in those VIRGIN WORLD http://go4lolita.com/virgin/
already unaccessible for us.

But we can see them!
And we can try to be closer to their perfectanse of youth.

Free Tour & Join http://go4lolita.com/virgin/

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.2.0

U3n++OeF3uUIQ7MYi3naE3nYq77+7Yai+q+Oij+QuE77yUuQm7 Uiq+FA3U3ai+Yu
mq3EqInnEiU33UIMi37A7uA+U37B7E7Qm+BEn+IjeMFMA3Yim+ uQyuByAOa3M3Y3
7+yuA3umuyyuQMA7nujmUInBAmunFQ7nE+qE+nuiu++Y++uMy+ iQi7EqIyu+qBIq
miemaI+UEEEIAyje73unaq3iII3yjYO33uM3mjiuMmejn+iauM +F3yFuqQn7eF7M
YiiBmI+37jUuu7UAiAFneA7EQu+e7EUie3BIumun33BI7+OMA+ BqaQeie7U3+AQe
3emUIAAY7YQO+IEUQF+i+7QuaaEFyByYaIiqnqUM3EEnEnnM7Q Y7jI7U3Ye7+Aiy
FAM3yOQnnnAOOnFBEEmIMQUQOyjn73mM3aQEiejumOaeQQi+j+ M3UO+jYF+iFq7i
Qmm+I3Qm3qnF3ijjqAE7QIQI+MaIe7iuFE3Qai73AFjyiAq+Iq 3+ymFF+iI7ByQu
uqyOj37QQmiyeje7aOEnqM3Y7yuIAe73AAeQ7Y7mjEninBMY7I MBUQmnaMFaiM3i
jE+qUMAOIUmU+3+7+I+EOiQ3e3eUj3BA7uiE73+UjaAF3+qnMu E++++iyjBqOyie
QIiM+73e33yuyO7uaFe3U7AyqYEq3mOq
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here's the spoofed header (as usual):
Return-Path: <virgin31904@vworld.com>
Received: from mail.**************.com (lonwri001.virtuebroadcasting.com [212.23.58.7])
by lsh100.siteprotect.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA02897
for <webmaster@**************.com>; Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:19:31 -0600
Date: Fri, 20 Dec 2002 08:19:31 -0600
Message-Id: <200212201419.IAA02897@lsh100.siteprotect.com>
From: Gray Duglas <virgin31904@vworld.com>
To: webmaster@**************.com
Reply-to: Gray Duglas <virgin31904@vworld.com>
Subject: Some later they'll know adult life(8224)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
boundary="----=OMAIL_ATT_0.05005273828282958224"

[Darin]

Chris,

I'm going to be launching into a beta a mailer service just before the show.

Hit me up on ICQ if you want to be one of the beta testers. It requires placing the email signup code on your pages. Perhaps you can test it on your tgp pages.

You will be able to email market to the members even if they didn't signup through your page.

[Pidgin]

Originally posted by heqdvd
Yes she's right on that one.
By the way: what is WANADOO.FR
(obviously from france)

ISP, belgium and france

[heqdvd]

thank you for that info...




(nice sig man)

[poppy]

Evil Chris,

First off, great thread! Finally got a chance to read through it and some good info here.

Twinkley, VERY unfortunate situation you had to deal with when you bought that "clean" list.

My 2 cents and it has already been said numerous times, treat your list w/ respect and everyone is happy.

Poppy

[dyonisus]

I am definitely on side with the importance of a Double Opt in mailer. And Hallelujah to those who say they will not sell the names on their list.

I have managed a few lists in my day. The lists that were double opt in did the best by far in overall conversions and VPC (Value Per Click).

Here is a small example of real data comparing a general SPAM list and a Double opt list.

SPAM LIST - 3 million names, conversion 1:235, VPC .08 cents
Opt List - 250k names, conversion 1:78, VPC .21 cents

Both sent the same creative and on the same day. If opt lists are not better then why would I get more sign ups and clicks then a SPAM list.

Sure there are many who have made money from the SPAM names. And many who continue to today, but in the end, especially with articles like this it is apparent that the ideal is to opt the names in.

[Platinum Dave]

Very interesting topic and some great responses,

will have to bookmark and read some more

[barryf]

In my experience renting mailing lists from other companies has not been profitable for us, at least recently.

On the other hand, using an in-house mailing list to stay in touch with our users has proven VERY profitable. Every time we do a mailing several old customers that might have been lost return to the site.

The addresses cost nothing since we collect them on our signup page (it is optional). Each mailing includes an unsubscribe option that actually works, plus we never sell or share the addresses.

If you take the time to build and care for your own mailing list, you may find that it is an excellent tool for retaining members.

B

[Evil Chris]

Some pretty interesting points of view here...
What happens however, when you have an airtight list and suddenly from one mailing you get half a dozen complaints?

Hey can anyone recommend a good application that will remove unwanted email addresses from lists?

[sharky]

Good Thread!

Evil Chris -

Have you tried using eList Pro?

It works great, right from your desktop. This way you are sure to have a copy of your removes list. Never leave it on the server in case of a crash. I copy mine to my harddrive daily:-)

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by sharky
Good Thread!

Evil Chris -

Have you tried using eList Pro?

It works great, right from your desktop. This way you are sure to have a copy of your removes list. Never leave it on the server in case of a crash. I copy mine to my harddrive daily:-) eList Pro... hmm nope I haven't heard of that one... where can I get a copy?

[Apollo]

I strongly suggest everyone to collect their own email addresses, it will always be better in the long run, and significantly cheaper overall. I've never found rented lists profitable...except when I'm the one renting out =)

Newsletters and the like though to people who you know for certain want them can be a major boost to any program.

[wsjb78]

I just did some research on eList Pro and that is what came out:

http://www.marketmenow.com/all_pages/soft/elist_pro/elistproinfopage.htm

Is that it Sharky?

Well, I hate spam also. There are a few things I subscribed to and I'm glad to have subscribed.... I also love Twinkley's weekly "spam" about her show... without her reminding me I would always forget about it...

However, I live in Switzerland and I don't give a fuck about mortage payments in the US oder whatever... some of that stuff is even sent to one of my .ch email addy.... and when I get the same spam email triple I just wonder don't they notice they have my email address more than once in their system???

[sharky]

Yep! that's it. and it's well worth the $$

:-)

[Evil Chris]

It would appear that this problem is not going away.
Check out this article in the recent YNOT News...
http://www.ynotmasters.com/news/ynews/issues/021303/page7.html

Like I have said, I think that mass porn mailings are going to practically disappear. Too many problems to deal with....
I know for a fact that a lot of the people that *used* to mass mail on a daily basis have not only stopped, but are packing up and selling all of their lists to the highest bidder. (and the bids ain't as high as you might think)

[sharky]

Chris -

Those you know must not be making enough $$ for it to be worthwhile to ADAPT!

Asnwith any industry,.... you need to adapt with the changes. Often each adaption means more $$ out of your pocket, if you have it.. you will be forced to adapt or get out. If you don't.. you obviously try to sell what you can and get out!

:-)

[Evil Chris]

Sharky, of course you're RIGHT!
Nothing ventured (or invested) means nothing gained.

Adapting, in the case of doing mailers, means more work for much less profit. Whereby once, your massive email lists were making it to the desktop of 95% of your destinations, now only 30% get it, and the CTR is lower than it's ever been for email marketing.

So what do most people do? They give up the game. They sell their lists and hype up to potential buyers how much money they can make, but in truth, it's how much they could have made if they had their hands on these lists etc.. 2 or 3 years ago.

[sharky]

Originally posted by Evil Chris


Adapting, in the case of doing mailers, means more work for much less profit. Whereby once, your massive email lists were making it to the desktop of 95% of your destinations, now only 30% get it, and the CTR is lower than it's ever been for email marketing.


You seem to be misinformed or have some really crappy software. My numbers don't look anywhere near that bad.

While I agree with you that lists make less compared to what they would have 3 years ago, so do free sites!!

But then again.. tooo many people are realizing you can amke some $$ in amil.. so STOP! It's not worth it!

[krosh]

Originally posted by ARiA


PS. anyone know why they call it spam instead of sardines or vienna sausage?? :confused: :bonk:


How did it come to mean bulk messages? The genesis of this meaning can be found in a Monty Python's Flying Circus sketch in which a customer in a restaurant asks what's on the menu. The waitress tells him, "Well, there's egg and bacon; egg, sausage, and bacon; egg and spam; egg, bacon, and spam; egg, bacon, sausage, spam; spam, bacon, sausage, and spam; spam, egg, spam, spam, bacon, and spam; spam, sausage, spam, spam, spam, bacon, spam, tomato, and spam; spam, spam, spam, egg, and spam" (and so on). Then a chorus of Vikings begins chanting "Spam, spam, spam, spam; lovely spam, wonderful spam." The first Internet use of the word originated in Internet chat rooms and on multiplayer Internet adventure games called MUDs (multiuser dungeons). According to Jennifer Smith, author of the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) list for the rec.games.mud newsgroup hierarchy, a few delinquents would "say" the same message again and again in a chat room, filling the screen in the process, and other people would call these messages "spam." It was just like the song in the Monty Python skit--senseless repetition. From flooding someone's screen with repeated words to flooding someone's mailbox or a newsgroup with repeated messages seemed to be a natural extension of the concept."

[PaulSweet]

Chris,

We actually track down a fair amount of our copyright infringement (content theft) through spam. Its amazing to see your content arrive in your inbox and refer back to the host site when you know they didn't buy it from you.

Our content licenses also have a no spam clause in them....so if the content was legit previously it might no longer be. ;)