For the Leaf haters

[Evil Chris]

One for Ronaldo, and another for Good Chris.

[Don Soporno]

Im lost? Is this a Canadian thing??

[GoodChris]

Who's Lisa?

http://www.xnetplus.com/leafs2.jpg

[Ronaldo]

I only used to dislike the Leafs.

Admittedly now I DO hate the Leafs, but I don't think it's really my fault. I love the sport of hockey, and the way they play it is a disgrace. It's like watching countries like China try to curl. They're so bad it's embarrassing to the entire sport. They shouldn't have been introduced to the game.

Much like many of the Leaf players.

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by Ronaldo
I only used to dislike the Leafs.

Admittedly now I DO hate the Leafs, but I don't think it's really my fault. I love the sport of hockey, and the way they play it is a disgrace. It's like watching countries like China try to curl. They're so bad it's embarrassing to the entire sport. They shouldn't have been introduced to the game.

Much like many of the Leaf players. This coming from someone who doesn't support one team in particular, and only complains about the sport.

And yeah, I know the Leafs lost both games to Montreal. Which in a way is fine because I also support the Habs. Neither has a great team this year anyway.

Toronto has a lot of re-building to do. But they're my team and I'm not a fair-weather fan.

[Ronaldo]

Originally posted by Evil Chris
This coming from someone who doesn't support one team in particular, and only complains about the sport.

And yeah, I know the Leafs lost both games to Montreal. Which in a way is fine because I also support the Habs. Neither has a great team this year anyway.

Toronto has a lot of re-building to do. But they're my team and I'm not a fair-weather fan.
*yawn*

If the team you grew up with left could YOU easily change your loyalties and cheer for a team YOU used to hate? A fair weather fan could. Which is why I DON'T have one team to cheer for anymore.

Being a friend doesn't mean when you have a disagreement you stop being friends either. You should be able to air your differences and steer clear for a while if need be. This has been my feeling towards hockey for close to a decade.

Say what you want Chris but hockey in the last decade has truly sucked ass. This year it HAS been better because the people in charge FINALLY listened to what the fans wanted. Sure the playoffs are always exciting, but a real sportsman can get into the playoffs of ANY sport because of the atmosphere and what's at stake. The games are NOT just like any of the other 82 games in the schedule. That still doesn't make it GOOD hockey. Curling isn't exactly a riveting sport, but the finals of the World Championship when Canada is playing is exciting.

Make no mistake either. They didn't magically start listening to the fans because they WANTED to listen to the fans, but they were fearful of losing them like MLB lost their fans after their last strike. Hopefully next year they listen to their fans AGAIN and fix their RIDICULOUS schedule.

[Evil Chris]

Maybe it's just because of the geographical location I'm from.
I grew up watching HNIC basically from its inception. With about a 60/40 split between Leafs games or Habs games.

So the team you grew up with went away? I'll venture a guess and say it was the Jets. Big deal, it happens. They were an expansion team in a medium market. Why did they leave? While I do feel for you, I'd also have to say as a hockey fan to move along and support another team. There's no shame in it. Being from the west (more or less), you must have at least a preference between Calgary or Edmonton. Solid and hard working teams both. Pick one. Stop whining. ;)

[Ronaldo]

Arguably the most successful team in the WHA that the Edmonton Oiler dynasty admittedly modeled their team after. Not a hack league or minor league either mind you, but one that MANY stars left the NHL to play in.

Note how the WHA teams were RAPED to gain admittance into the NHL? The Jets for example were able to protect TWO players out of their entire roster. Had they taken their existing team into the NHL they would have competed immediately for the Stanley Cup, but surely Harold Ballard and the center of the universe had a little influence over that. After all, that was when the Leafs had a pretty good roster. Imagine an EXPANSION team walking in and humiliating the entire NHL, let alone Ballard's Leafs.

Stop whining? lol, okay. Don't denigrate someone's loyalty in one breath, and say "Get over it" in the next. If your treasured Leafs ever left town Chris, I'm just GUESSING it would take you a few years to decide to cheer for the Senators. If not, perhaps you're not as loyal as you're making yourself out to be, nor as passionate about YOUR team as I was about mine.

Note-The absence of any remarks about the quality of NHL hockey in the last decade can only lead me to assume that you're not entirely ignorant of the game, and you do agree with me. As well you should.

[Evil Chris]

Arguably is indeed the key word, but nonetheless your NHL vs WHA argument holds no water. It was a "money talks bullshit walks" situation (precisely the reason why players like Bobby Hull went to the WHA in the first place). It was a foregone conclusion that the WHA would be eaten up by the expanding NHL. My cousin was part of the whole process actually. Having played for the Minn Fighting Saints back in the day. If you petition hard enough, maybe the Stanley Cup can be scrapped for the Avco Cup.

Ron, you still a fan of Thomas Steen? His son is playing well for the Leafs this season. :)

[Ronaldo]

Originally posted by Ronaldo
Stop whining? lol, okay. Don't denigrate someone's loyalty in one breath, and say "Get over it" in the next. If your treasured Leafs ever left town Chris, I'm just GUESSING it would take you a few years to decide to cheer for the Senators. If not, perhaps you're not as loyal as you're making yourself out to be, nor as passionate about YOUR team as I was about mine.

Again you entirely refuse to answer the most important and relevant part of the statement I made. Sad.

I liked Thomas Steen and his LOYALTY, but he wasn't as great as some Jet fans would have you believe. But he was also the first European player that Don Cherry probably ever liked. Watch some of the old best hockey fight videos from the 80's and Steen is ironically the most featured Jet.

His son Alexander? Hopefully he's matured some since he was a spoiled little brat when he was a kid.

[GoodChris]

Oh would you 2 just stop it.

Lets just face facts.

Toronto Sucks. One of Evil's favorite Leafs is Domi. Domi came from the Jets.

Now shake hands and make up or get the fuck out of the sandbox...one of you is farting and I can't take the odour anymore ;)

[Evil Chris]

Ron, what exactly would you like me to answer again?

You contradict yourself all over the place in this conversation. I am now truly surprised that you do not support the Leafs based on things I already know about you (ie.. huge Domi fan), and also things you are revealing about yourself.

You talk about loyalty. How loyal was Bobby Hull and the other NHL players who followed him? The NHL was in a big transitional period, and change is never easy but things leveled out.

If you really want to talk about loyalty, let's mention Darryl Sittler shall we? The best Maple Leaf throughout the 70s, who was never fully liked by Ballard yet he remained with the Leafs even though he had offers of A LOT more money from the WHA.

Bottom line here is that you have nothing positive to say about the game yet you say you are a fan. Make up your mind. Roll with the punches like the rest of us. The NHL has been working hard to make the game better for everyone. They seem to be on the right track IMHO.

[Ronaldo]

Originally posted by Evil Chris
Ron, what exactly would you like me to answer again?

You contradict yourself all over the place in this conversation. I am now truly surprised that you do not support the Leafs based on things I already know about you (ie.. huge Domi fan), and also things you are revealing about yourself.

I mentioned liking Thomas Steen's loyalty and THAT is "Contradicting myself all over the place?"

Originally posted by Evil Chris
You talk about loyalty. How loyal was Bobby Hull and the other NHL players who followed him? The NHL was in a big transitional period, and change is never easy but things leveled out.

If you really want to talk about loyalty, let's mention Darryl Sittler shall we? The best Maple Leaf throughout the 70s, who was never fully liked by Ballard yet he remained with the Leafs even though he had offers of A LOT more money from the WHA.

How loyal were they to the game of hockey or the NHL? (see below)

Note-I always like Darryl Sittler and my nickname growing up was Lanny.

Originally posted by Evil Chris

Bottom line here is that you have nothing positive to say about the game yet you say you are a fan. Make up your mind. Roll with the punches like the rest of us. The NHL has been working hard to make the game better for everyone. They seem to be on the right track IMHO.
Originally posted by Ronaldo
This year it HAS been better because the people in charge FINALLY listened to what the fans wanted.
Actually, I seem to be the one being honest in this thread.

But I FINALLY see where you're coming from. It's not HOCKEY that you're a fan of....it's "NHL" hockey.

Sorry to break it to you Chris, but you have the arrogant attitude that is normally associated with our neighbors to the South. OUR game is THE game! While it may have the best players in the world, it doesn't mean it's the best hockey in the world.

International hockey has always been better than NHL hockey. And quite frankly, THAT'S where the best hockey players in the world play. I've long said that if the NHL played on International Ice with International rules THEN the NHL might put on an as entertaining a product. That not being financially feasible, they did the next best thing by taking out the red line, and I acknowledged that above.

I'm not sure if so much not financially feasible to individual teams though or the entire league. Some NHL players are so bad they couldn't play on larger ice. I don't think they could fill the rosters of all the teams they have with quality players. Which covers something else I've said for years....expansion happened too fast and caused the NHL to put out an inferior product because they don't have enough quality players to play the game. Hence the reason so many teams played the trap.

I won't just sit back and tow the line and tell someone how great they are and how great their product is out of loyalty. I'd feel like I'm doing them a disservice by doing so, and thus I'd feel I'm being DISloyal in the process.

I could go on and on but I'll listen to Good Chris's advice, because I simply don't see you seeing someone else's point of view anyways.

[Evil Chris]

Ron, I appreciate much (but not all) of your point of view on hockey in general and how the NHL came to where it is today. Perhaps I try to think on a more positive side, rather than holding a grudge against the NHL.

I think we both agree that the current situation is a massive improvement since 98/99 when for example, just putting your toe in the crease resulted in a goal being disallowed.

Arrogant is a bit of a stretch though. :) I am indeed a fan of hockey, not just the NHL. But I believe that this is the elite league, where the best players in the world play, or desire to play. For money yes... But also because they're playing in the best overall calibre league.

[Ronaldo]

Originally posted by Evil Chris
Ron, I appreciate much (but not all) of your point of view on hockey in general and how the NHL came to where it is today. Perhaps I try to think on a more positive side, rather than holding a grudge against the NHL.

I think we both agree that the current situation is a massive improvement since 98/99 when for example, just putting your toe in the crease resulted in a goal being disallowed.

Arrogant is a bit of a stretch though. :) I am indeed a fan of hockey, not just the NHL. But I believe that this is the elite league, where the best players in the world play, or desire to play. For money yes... But also because they're playing in the best overall calibre league.
Apology accepted.

[MorganGrayson]

Love the pic, Chris. :)

You have such an impossibly young face. :)

I return you guys to your bitch-slapping. :)

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by Ronaldo
Apology accepted. I take it you've had enough. :p

[gnat69]

Originally posted by Evil Chris
One for Ronaldo, and another for Good Chris.

ditto chris!!! :D

[Ronaldo]

Originally posted by Evil Chris
I take it you've had enough. :p
lol, I could go on all day my friend, but I think that's as close to you capitulating as I'm gonna get.

I WILL add that I'm not holding a grudge against the NHL. I just refuse to say they have a great product when they don't.

To put my feelings and RATIONAL thinking into perspective for you, even though I HATED the Oilers of the 80's with a passion, they WERE entertaining to watch. That's an obviously unbiased opinion, and one you seem to be having a hard time grasping.

Fuck it, I'll even add this. Prior to last year Chris, I thought hockey players were the most well conditioned athletes in the world besides soccer players. Now, I've NEVER been a fan of basketball...probably because being a short, white man isn't exactly condusive to success in the sport (Steve Nash being a rare exception). However, I spent last year watching a good amount of basketball and even though the Raptors were not a great team the game itself was, and the endurance of the players was utterly amazing.

And there isn't anything I can think of that's more exciting in sports than March Madness. Those kids are playing with such passion in front of a crowd with the same passion, that it's almost impossible not to get caught up in it, AND start to appreciate the game.

[Evil Chris]

Basketball? NCAA no less?
You're simply not worthy Ron.

However, it is only a matter of time before you surgically pull THAT sport apart and concentrate on it's flaws. You'll be on an "NBA strike" soon enough.

Was the NBA known as anything else before it became the NBA? That way, you'll have some kind of "good old days" story to talk about on the boards.

[Ronaldo]

Originally posted by Evil Chris
Basketball? NCAA no less?
You're simply not worthy Ron.

However, it is only a matter of time before you surgically pull THAT sport apart and concentrate on it's flaws. You'll be on an "NBA strike" soon enough.

Was the NBA known as anything else before it became the NBA? That way, you'll have some kind of "good old days" story to talk about on the boards.
I have no doubt it has flaws, I have yet to find anything that doesn't. When you're more caring about something the flaws tend to stick out more though. My wife for example. (To answer your expected reply in advance, that isn't FOCUSING on the flaws, just noticing them more because you DO pay more attention.)

And I don't profess to have enough knowledge about basketball to even attempt to tear it apart.

I can only assume from your laughing at the NCAA that you haven't spent any time watching it. That's fine. I don't expect everyone to enjoy the same things. My wife for example.

I could promise you this though. Watch the March Madness final and THEN tell me it isn't ONE of the most exciting things you've ever witnessed in sports...whether you like the sport or not.

[Evil Chris]

I've tried to get into basketball in the past. It's just not a sport for me though. I've even let baseball fall by the wayside in recent years. I've just lost interest in it. I do play, however. Ok it's an old-timers conventional softball league, but I still play. :)

I'm more into hockey and golf nowadays. I've never enjoyed playing and watching golf as I do now. Even if I'm not very good at it.

[Ronaldo]

Originally posted by Evil Chris
I've tried to get into basketball in the past. It's just not a sport for me though. I've even let baseball fall by the wayside in recent years. I've just lost interest in it. I do play, however. Ok it's an old-timers conventional softball league, but I still play. :)

I'm more into hockey and golf nowadays. I've never enjoyed playing and watching golf as I do now. Even if I'm not very good at it.
Yep, after the strike of '94 baseball lost my interest as well. I've been watching a little here and there, but nothing like I used to.

Stephen Ames smoked the field yesterday. Best golfer from Canada (kind of). Has been for a while now actually.

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by Ronaldo
Yep, after the strike of '94 baseball lost my interest as well. I've been watching a little here and there, but nothing like I used to.

Stephen Ames smoked the field yesterday. Best golfer from Canada (kind of). Has been for a while now actually. Baseball players are the most spoiled brat athletes out there in my opinion.

Ames did great didn't he? I watched all of Saturday and Sunday.
Weir had a chance but was one of many that completely imploded their game on the final day. I'm anxious for the Masters now. Tiger may or may not be playing. It depends on the health of his father. I hope he plays and I also hope his father is well enough to watch.

Remember that the President's Trophy comes to Royal Montreal in 2007. Start bugging Phil now for company tickets. If that fails, I have a pair for Friday and again Sunday.

[Ronaldo]

Originally posted by Evil Chris
Baseball players are the most spoiled brat athletes out there in my opinion.

Uh oh. Here we go again.

I do tend to agree with you on that, but by the same token HOCKEY players recently seemed to have taken to that way of thinking.

I placed a lot of the blame of Bob Goodenow and stand by that. I'm not a fan of Gary Bettman, but I do believe Goodenow's financial expectations for his players was WAY out of whack.

Here's the worst example I've ever seen, of ANY player I can think of (Terrell Owens being the possible exception). It may have been stupid for management to make the contract front loaded, but it was still the player and the agent who were ultimately at fault for not honoring the contract. In fact, I'm curious as to why a player has yet to be sued for breach of contract. I'm waiting for that to happen. It will put things back into perspective for the players.

Anyways, about 1994 I believe Keith Tkachuk signed a front loaded contract (I'm not positive on the numbers, but the example is close). First year 10 million dollars, second year 2 million, third year 2 million. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he DID (although I'm not positive) honour year two. He held out the final year of his contract for more money, because he WASN'T WORTH ONLY TWO MILLIONS DOLLARS PER YEAR. Noone ever said hockey players were great at math, but my calculations make it closer to FIVE million dollars per year. Was he worth TEN million dollars? He didn't have any problem collecting that money.

The NHL doesn't make the same money that the NFL does, or MLB does, so they shouldn't expect the same kind of money. OR, GIVE them that money, watch 8 teams fold and the union will lose 25% of their jobs and membership. THAT I honestly wouldn't mind seeing. It would also help weed out some of the inferior players playing in the NHL today.

But hopefully the union and owners stay the current course and realize they can both make FAIR money by working together instead of the players being pissed off that the owners make ANY money at all (Something THIS industry needs to keep in mind as well).

Note-I'm also aware that revenue sharing IS an important aspect of this and that the owners DO deserve some fault for not implementing it sooner like the NFL. But that by no means takes away from the greediness of the players and Bob Goodenow.

[Evil Chris]

sorry... I nodded off there.
You were going off on another sports related tangent I believe.

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by Ronaldo
Uh oh. Here we go again. You meant to say, "Here I go again.."

Right? ;)

[war_ner]

Haha! That's cool Chris! :)

[Jimmidean]

oooww man and the palyoffs have not even started yet.

[Evil Chris]

Originally posted by Jimmidean
oooww man and the palyoffs have not even started yet. I know JD, however barring a miracle I will have to wait until next year to see my team in the playoffs.

[Quagmire]

You know, I hear a lot of a clinking noise coming from the direction of Toronto.

Sounds like golf clubs coming out to me. :)

[TheLegacy]

Originally posted by GoodChris
Who's Lisa?

http://www.xnetplus.com/leafs2.jpg

ah.. good ol' montreal - the best farm team Toronto Leafs ever had

[MorganGrayson]

Sports fans. Men. Geeze.

I tell the guy "thanks for the pic" and that he has an impossibly young looking face...do I get so much as a "thanks, Morgan"?

No. Of course not.

*grumble, grumble, bitch, swear*