Content producers - did you ever feel...

[Pidgin]

A question for content producers.
did you ever what you are doing has immoral - or lets use a word like negative?
I mean - there was a discussion lately about women trafficing and slavery. I was wondering about the issue of content producing in that aspect.
Not that I am saying that anyone who I know that produces content deals with people who do that or with women that are part of it - on the contrary.
But the whole issue of the women's choice and free will and the fact that the women sometimes don't do it for fun :) raises a question that I don't really have enough input about.
Can you share some of your views and thoughts?

[Mister X]

In a word: No.

We aren't corrupting the morals or "exploiting" anyone. For the money that these girls get paid for a few hours work, if anything they are exploiting themselves. And rather successfully. Many of the girls we shoot are already dancing in strip clubs etc. or indulging in other less than "moral" activities. Many of them dabble in prostitution. The ones that do neither of those things are often looking for a thrill or just need some quick cash. I'm not saying that the girls who give blowjobs or a quick fuck for money are doing anything wrong either. I happen to be in favour of legalized prostitution.

But I AM saying that shooting content with these girls is often better money for safer work than the things they do on a daily basis.

And the girls who do it for a thrill or quick cash get exactly that.

It's a fact in our society that for unskilled girls just out of high school there is a huge lack of jobs that pay a decent living wage. No doubt this is a big factor in the number of girls who are willing to shoot content, etc. It's a fact that sex and good looks sell. And the price they sell for is a lot higher than what is paid to girls with good cash register or waitressing skills.

In point of fact I think that a VERY small percentage of women who are active in the talent side of our industry do it for fun. I know of at least a couple who are lesbians and only do guys for money. Certainly some of the girls do it for fun, but the ones who stay in the industry primarily do it for money. Even if they have fun doing it it's usually a secondary factor. A "job perk" if you will.

[luke]

No. We don't force anyone to do anything they don't want to do and we only shoot mostly solo girls and some hardcore, nothing to weird.

[Paul Markham]

Some people in the business are definitely abusing girls, the more extreme producers.

We will not shoot anything that we would not do in private and we are fairly normal. Plus look at the girls eyes and the smile on her face and remember they are not actors. Frightened hesitant girls do not sell in the main stream.

I wonder why you aske the question. Do you feel like you are abusing the girl by selling her pictures?

[Pidgin]

Originally posted by Paul Markham
I wonder why you aske the question.
Do you feel like you are abusing the girl by selling her pictures?
I ask questions, because during the last 28 years of my life, I realized that the best thing to know things is to ask. Most knowledge don't come to mewhile sleeping or taking a dump, so whenever I am wodering about something and want to know or learn - I ask.

As you the second question - I don't really sell any pictures. I don't really deal with content. I only do webmaster services - like BoardTracker.com. So to answer you : No I don't feel I abuse anyone (because I don't really have the opportunity ;))
But as I explained in the original post - I do wonder about the moral issues that I suspect accompany some sides of the porn industry and the content production in a way.
My post is a seek for knowledge, thoughts and opinions. There is no need to be offended or protective since I don't judge or accuse anyone here. (just in case that wasn't clear from my post)

[Ounique]

Hey bro,

Excellent post, should raise a lot of questions and bring out some good discussion. I wonder why you mention only girls? Do you think that guys can't be exploited? I'm just stirring the waters here because I work for a content provider, and I have no problem with it at all. If the photos we sold did not have IDs and Model Releases I might have a different opinion, but it is all perfectly consentual. The models have to sign the forms in order to prove that they are doing it all willingly.

As for my personal opinion, well, I've been looking at porn for years. It makes me feel good, it keeps me going when I don't have someone to play around with (which can sometimes be a loooong time, LOL!!!). So in my own way, I am helping the industry that has brought me so much joy. :D

[Pidgin]

True. It can be males as well.
With my little dealing with content it didn't spring to mind.
I am sure reputable content producers are all doing what you desribed with concentual content producing and free willing models.
But stepping aside from the people behind the content producing for a minute and looking at the phenomena...
A guy/girl are forced to work in porn content.. Do you totally see it as equivalent to a guy/girl forced to deliver newspapers? or would you say its categorically different? I have an uneducated urge to go with the second. Thats why I am asking people for their opinions - especially those who have dealt with the issue.

[Easton]

i sell what's legal... simple enough

[Mister X]

Originally posted by XXXManager
True. It can be males as well.
With my little dealing with content it didn't spring to mind.
I am sure reputable content producers are all doing what you desribed with concentual content producing and free willing models.
But stepping aside from the people behind the content producing for a minute and looking at the phenomena...
A guy/girl are forced to work in porn content.. Do you totally see it as equivalent to a guy/girl forced to deliver newspapers? or would you say its categorically different? I have an uneducated urge to go with the second. Thats why I am asking people for their opinions - especially those who have dealt with the issue. What exactly do you mean by forced? Literally forced on pain of phsical violence, etc. ? Or forced by economic circumstances? Or what?

If you're talking coercion then it's pie in the sky type stuff. Probably somewhere in the world someone has been forced to do pornograpic content. But it really isn't something that would be easy to do in North America and most of Europe where pretty tight controls are in force. It isn't like prostitution where things happen behind closed doors. Pornography is, by it's very nature, a much more public thing than something like delivering newspapers. If someone was forcing a group of immigrants to deliver newspapers how many people would even notice? In most places the newspapers are delivered before you even get out of bed now. And the days of the paperboy coming buy to collect his money are mostly gone.

If you are talking about shit like rape or snuff films then that is a whole different thing and doesn't come under the heading of content production. 99% of the people in this business won't even consider making simulated scenes like that.

And if you're talking about being forced by economic circumstances or something similar then you are really off base. There are always stories like "I Was Forced Into Prostitution to Pay For My Drug Habit", etc. As far as I'm concerned they are a load of shit. A drug addict can get treatment and a poor woman can probably get a job in Mcdonalds a lot easier than she could get a job as talent in the content biz. But the fact is that some people always follow the path of least resistance. A large majority of the girls dance/model for a living because it's easy money and they are either too lazy or too unqualified to get a job making the kind of wages they make in porn. I'm not trying to belittle or deride them either. If I was a girl and had the looks to do it I probably would too, lol. There is a fairly persistent myth in this business about the college girls who work in strip clubs or do porn to pay their way through school. It isn't a total myth but there are a hell of a lot less college girls doing it than some of the biz would like the public to believe, hehehe.

In all honesty you seem to be under some misapprehensions about what actually happens in the content business. And about the girls/guys who do it from the talent side. They are neither downtrodden angels nor are they sluts or nymphos. They are just regular people trying to get by.

[StacyCat]

I dont feel immoral, either about my content producing partnership, or my own site.

Girls that we deal with are not corerced in any way, they all willingly sign the model releases.

There might be those content producers that might do things unethically, but those with good ethics, business morals, and content will be in this business far longer.

[Pidgin]

Let me clarify, because some of the input you give is really good and what I am looking for.

By immoral - I dont mean the content itself. I have very little problem with most of it - at least the mainstream. I don't like the gagging, snaff (even the fake), rape (<-), puke etc... [some of it I see as wrong] but mostly just because I dont like it. I mean the existance of the driving force that makes people work in this field. Correct me if I am wrong, but most people who work in content didn't see themself doing it when they were kids. right? Wouldn't you say that most people didn't really want to end up doing that?

By forced [MisterX] - I mean the second option. That is exactly why I gave the newspaper example - I thought it will make it unshakebly clear. My friend was forced by reality - the need for money - to go work as a newspaper delivery boy because he had to pay ren money and he couldn't find any other job even though he has a first degree in Law and Economics. So I mean the simple "force" not the violent.

Important for you to understand - I do not claim anything here is immoral. I only want to hear your views about the morality factor in the content industry. Mainly the mainstream one.
Also - I don't blame anyone - so no need to feel like anyone is being judged or attacked by me. I am simply talking over the net with people who have more information and knowledge than me in that field and would appriciate their insight.
Third - I am not really aiming at people who produce content on their own. Most of those who I know and who will answer me over this board - do it because it fun for them or atleast its nothing much for them and the money is good. Which is as valid for me as any other profession.
So think about my question on the sociological and "environmental" level. I am just curious.

[Mister X]

Well that makes it a little clearer Ron, hehehe. :D

Personally I think that most of the people who produce the content, and virtually all of the girls/guys who are the talent just more or less fell into it. There are exceptions of course. Some of the producers and probably a good number of the stuntcocks got into it so they could get laid more often, lol. But most of us didn't make a conscious decision to pursue a "vocation".

I will stick by what I said about it being easier to get a job at McD's (or delivering newspapers) than it is to get a job in content on either side of the camera. In the business that I am involved in I would say that less than 5 percent of the content that comes out of here is made with a girl that answered an ad or walked in off the street (for one thing we don't have a sign on the door :D ). The majority of the new girls we shoot are actually sent our way by one of the girls we have shot already. And we don't shoot every girl that wants to shoot either. It may be somewhat different for other content producers in other locales but here in Montreal the majority of the girls start out dancing in clubs. Very possibly a lot of those girls are "forced" into dancing by a need for money and a lack of useful skills. But when they come to us it's usually a step up the ladder and a way to make a little extra cash. Not as a primary source of income.

[NetRodent]

Originally posted by XXXManager
...
But the whole issue of the women's choice and free will and the fact that the women sometimes don't do it for fun raises a question that I don't really have enough input about.
...


People are "forced" to do a lot of jobs that aren't fun. Is coal mining a fun job? Does working knee deep in fish on a factory ship sound fun? I can't imagine the life of a migrant farm worker is all skittles and beer. Are those jobs immoral or unethical?

Are "fun" crimes like rape, murder-for-kicks, or kiddie porn more ethical than crimes that aren't fun?

Does "fun" have any bearing on morality?

[Pidgin]

Originally posted by NetRodent
People are "forced" to do a lot of jobs that aren't fun. Is coal mining a fun job? Does working knee deep in fish on a factory ship sound fun? I can't imagine the life of a migrant farm worker is all skittles and beer. Are those jobs immoral or unethical?

Are "fun" crimes like rape, murder-for-kicks, or kiddie porn more ethical than crimes that aren't fun?

Does "fun" have any bearing on morality?
Well. Thats a good example.
Maybe it would help to clarify what I mean by fun/moral...
Coal mining - the way its done even today in 3rd world country, is what I would consider immoral job. Maybe since there is no way to neutralize the risk of dying from cancer at the end of the day, especially the way these things operate.
Hard work on a fishing board as hard as it is or newspaper delivery etc.. Nothing wrong with it.

As to the "fun" crimes question - I didn't fully understand what you mean. But certainly stealing a candy from store or even robbing a bank is more "ethical" than raping a 12 year old kid in my opinion. (I don't fully understand though why you ask that - especially with relation to crime).

[NetRodent]

Originally posted by XXXManager
As to the "fun" crimes question - I didn't fully understand what you mean. But certainly stealing a candy from store or even robbing a bank is more "ethical" than raping a 12 year old kid in my opinion. (I don't fully understand though why you ask that - especially with relation to crime).

Its was a rhetorical question. Your original statement statement seemed to imply that if a girl wasn't having fun modeling, that photographing her was somehow less moral/ethical than if she was having fun.

If that's the case, that means whether or not something is fun can affect the morality/ethicalness of a given act. So why not apply that standard to crimes? Is a crime that's "fun", such as rape, more moral than a crime that isn't "fun", such as shoplifting?

Obviously, it's not. Perhaps fun has no bearing on morality at all.

[Pidgin]

Originally posted by NetRodent
Its was a rhetorical question. Your original statement statement seemed to imply that if a girl wasn't having fun modeling, that photographing her was somehow less moral/ethical than if she was having fun.

If that's the case, that means whether or not something is fun can affect the morality/ethicalness of a given act. So why not apply that standard to crimes? Is a crime that's "fun", such as rape, more moral than a crime that isn't "fun", such as shoplifting?

Obviously, it's not. Perhaps fun has no bearing on morality at all.

hmm..
Well. As I also clarified in previous posts in this thread, I didnt refer to the act of taking their pictures - so (as I also posted on this thread before) - no need to feel like I am suggesting anything about content producers or blaming anyone. Please read my posts here again.

As to "fun" crimes... Rape is not a fun crime. Rapists don't do it for sexual pleasure but for control, power and violence. So I don't see the parallelism. I also don't fully see where I suggested its the "unfun" part that makes it immoral but rather asked people for their opinions about the role women and men play in the content production chain.

I don't see why a question and search for opinions and views has to always be taken in a negative and defensive way on boards :(
If you claim there is nothing immoral in the wider and more remote corner of the adult/porn industry - than I see why you may be so defensive and surprised that someone wonders about morality issues with respect of the industry.
But if you do realize that some things in the industry may be immoral - than maybe you can see this thread and question as a theoretical question about where are the bounderies of imorrality.

[NetRodent]

Originally posted by XXXManager
hmm..
Well. As I also clarified in previous posts in this thread, I didnt refer to the act of taking their pictures - so (as I also posted on this thread before) - no need to feel like I am suggesting anything about content producers or blaming anyone. Please read my posts here again./B]

Yes, I know you clarified things in your earlier posts. You mentioned that you didn't get my comment about fun crimes, I was merely clarifing my original comment in the context it was posted in.


Originally posted by XXXManager
[B]As to "fun" crimes... Rape is not a fun crime. Rapists don't do it for sexual pleasure but for control, power and violence. So I don't see the parallelism.

I have to disagree with you here. While it is true that most rapes are done for control or power, I would say those reasons fall under the definition of "fun". Can you picture an alarm clock going off at 8:00 am on a Monday morning and a rapist waking up and thinking "Bummer, gotta get back to the daily grind of raping people"? As distasteful as it is rape is done for recreation not survival (except in messed up parts of the world where its done for ethnic or political reasons). Rarely is someone forced to rape, people do it of their own free will. Hence, its done for "fun", albeit under a broad definition of fun.


Originally posted by XXXManager
I also don't fully see where I suggested its the "unfun" part that makes it immoral but rather asked people for their opinions about the role women and men play in the content production chain.

My original post was inspired by one line from your original post "But the whole issue of the women's choice and free will and the fact that the women sometimes don't do it for fun raises a question that I don't really have enough input about." My only point and perhaps I made it badly, was that whether a model has fun or not has no bearing on the morality of content production.