US soldiers torture iraqis

[tina]

cant believe this. we are supposed to be the civilised world????
for gods sake. :2guns:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3672117.stm

::-|

[Evil Chris]

As bad as it is... I can only say that this stuff happens. They are soldiers and there is a history of this kind of thing in any nation's military. It's just that 99% of it never reaches the public eye.

Do you remember the scandal of the Canadian military and a Somali detainee from about 10 years ago?

[SKULL]

Originally posted by tina
cant believe this. we are supposed to be the civilised world????
for gods sake.

POWs always get tortured, but indeed US Military tactics of interrogating are way softer than those of nations from Middle East, Eeastern Europe and Asia...

[Evil Chris]

There is so much in the military that the public NEVER finds out about.

I mean scary shit.

[Don Soporno]

Originally posted by Evil Chris
There is so much in the military that the public NEVER finds out about.

I mean scary shit.


indeed. I was in the military and there is still a SHIT LOAD I didnt see or dont even know about. Never got to investigate what was my original reason for joining.

[Panky]

"Civilised" is one of those vague, convenient terms.

[gel]

Originally posted by SKULL
POWs always get tortured, but indeed US Military tactics of interrogating are way softer than those of nations from Middle East, Eeastern Europe and Asia...

The problem is that these people are not POWs. The are civilians. As such they are not covered under the Geneva Convention. To make matters worse many of the torturers aren't military personel. Many of them are "civilian contractors" i.e. mercenaries

The people being held in this prison are not combatants at all. They are civilians picked up by US troops.

The whole situation is fucked up.

[dimple]

that's poignant, how come they do that thing, so sarcastic

[venturi]

why bother rewriting a response when the same thing is being crossposted like wild fire? I'll just repost my feelings...

I'm truly saddened by this news, but I'm more saddened by the sheep that believe everything they read. Instead of typing everything over again, I'll just repost my responses to tina's posts on another board:

Pretty much my opinion on this subject is simple: If you have never lived through the horror of combat, have never had a bullet fired at you in anger, have never seen the trechery of war - then your opinion pretty much doesn't add up to a Netpond posting nickel. And that includes myself. I served my country for 6 years and was just plain lucky that I never got deployed into a hostile situation. I know more about the military than most of the people posting their layman's opinions here, and I also know that even with my experiences I have no idea what the mental and physical stresses of combat might incite me to do.

I've had some pretty intimate conversations with combat veterans, but even what they can tell you doesn't amount to crap of what they really experienced. And no one that has not been in that situation has a right to be judge, jury and executioner. People think that just because they watched Platoon & Full Metal Jacket & Hamburger Hill & whatnot that they have a clue. They don't.

I remember way back in boot camp when we did a live fire demonstration. 39 Marine recruits online with automatic weapons and tracer rounds laying down a precision interlocking field of fire. It was an impenitrable river of lead. I remember thinking at the time, "HOLY SHIT if we can lay down that much force, so can the enemy!" It was a *very* sobering moment.

------------------------
ok, I am going to rant some more.

The bottom line? Before anyone here or elsewhere points a finger at someone going thru the horror of WAR they need to take a walk in the shoes of a soldier. When we first went in the Iraqii's were raising white flags of surrender only to then open fire on our troops. They blasted mosques, schools, hospitals, etc. during the initial conflicts - and then blamed us. I guess the graves of THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of Iraqi citizens that Sadam and his creepy sons killed doesn't matter. I guess the terror that this regime inflicted for 36 years doesn't matter either. Yeah, let him be a middle east Hitler. The only thing that pisses me off about the whole situation is that it took this long for us to say "enough is enough" and take him and his crowd out.

Yes, unfortunately we built him. That does suck. What people need to realize is that now we have realized that it was a heinous mistake and we have to correct that to the best of our ability. Marines and Army Rangers die every day without the threat of combat - that's part of the risk involved with the job. Only 1000 have died thus far, where as in Vietnam we lost 55,000 to liberate a tiny strip of god forsaken (though beautiful) land.

See, Freedom is something we hold dear in this country. It's something I hold so dear that I would give my life to protect it for all of you. I gave my country 6 years of my life, and would give my life again if they'd take my old ass back. Do we as a country overstep our bounds? Hmm... maybe. Do I agree with the current US administrative agenda? NO.

I'm still a global patriot though, and if there comes a need to protect you, folks like me will be one of the first in line to defend you. This simple concept is what I feel so many people worldwide fail to understand. We (people like me) don't give a damned where you come from. If you're being stepped upon we will help if we can. Even if it means that we're going to have to get really ugly and kill others. It's not pretty, it isn't intended to be pretty.

As a US Marine I wasn't taught that killing is good. I was taught that warfare is about beating down the will to resist by the enemy. There isn't normally a reason to go to bloodshed, most conflicts should be handled through diplomacy. Yet sometimes people are idiots and opt for the worst. Marines aren't baby killers, we don't like the concept of executing the training we have been given. The very last thing I ever wanted to do as a Marine is mow down a battalion of enemy forces with our weapons. But here's the deal - if you don't stand down we WILL apply force. Chosing to take up arms when diplomacy could work is at the least unwise, and often deadly.

[[tuka]]

The thing is that you always expect for you and your people to be "above" the things shown in the newspaper and on TV.

Yes, you're smart enought to understand that if your country is involved in a war there will be causalties, both sides, but you still don't want your brother, friend, neighboor to die or be badly injured.

You're smart enough to understand (even if you never were in the army) that theses things happen, if caught, your soldiers might be tortured or killed (and it goes both sides).

Deep down inside though, more that "winning the war" what you expect is for your boys to come back safe. And since you are taught that you are the good ones (as in : ennemy is bad), you don't expect good people to act like this, you don't expect your boys to commit such acts (as in : only the ennemy would be low enough to do this).



Pardon my German...

[tina]

you are right, tuka. these things happen in both sides. and since we think we are the good ones, we cannot help but being "shocked" after finding out what we can do in war.
war is hell and there has to be a good reason to support war. this time i think there was no good reason enough.

[nanda]

Originally posted by venturi

The bottom line? Before anyone here or elsewhere points a finger at someone going thru the horror of WAR they need to take a walk in the shoes of a soldier. When we first went in the Iraqii's were raising white flags of surrender only to then open fire on our troops. They blasted mosques, schools, hospitals, etc. during the initial conflicts - and then blamed us. I guess the graves of THOUSANDS UPON THOUSANDS of Iraqi citizens that Sadam and his creepy sons killed doesn't matter. I guess the terror that this regime inflicted for 36 years doesn't matter either. Yeah, let him be a middle east Hitler. The only thing that pisses me off about the whole situation is that it took this long for us to say "enough is enough" and take him and his crowd out.

Yes, unfortunately we built him. That does suck. What people need to realize is that now we have realized that it was a heinous mistake and we have to correct that to the best of our ability. Marines and Army Rangers die every day without the threat of combat - that's part of the risk involved with the job. Only 1000 have died thus far, where as in Vietnam we lost 55,000 to liberate a tiny strip of god forsaken (though beautiful) land.

See, Freedom is something we hold dear in this country. It's something I hold so dear that I would give my life to protect it for all of you. I gave my country 6 years of my life, and would give my life again if they'd take my old ass back. Do we as a country overstep our bounds? Hmm... maybe. Do I agree with the current US administrative agenda? NO.

I'm still a global patriot though, and if there comes a need to protect you, folks like me will be one of the first in line to defend you. This simple concept is what I feel so many people worldwide fail to understand. We (people like me) don't give a damned where you come from. If you're being stepped upon we will help if we can. Even if it means that we're going to have to get really ugly and kill others. It's not pretty, it isn't intended to be pretty.

As a US Marine I wasn't taught that killing is good. I was taught that warfare is about beating down the will to resist by the enemy. There isn't normally a reason to go to bloodshed, most conflicts should be handled through diplomacy. Yet sometimes people are idiots and opt for the worst. Marines aren't baby killers, we don't like the concept of executing the training we have been given. The very last thing I ever wanted to do as a Marine is mow down a battalion of enemy forces with our weapons. But here's the deal - if you don't stand down we WILL apply force. Chosing to take up arms when diplomacy could work is at the least unwise, and often deadly.

I completly agree with everything that you wrote. You basically narrowed it down better then I could have. Thank you for expalining it to people who are the first to shout agaisnt things, and take their own freedom for granted!;)

[Cold_ice]

Where are the pics of the actual abuse?

[bizmak]

there isnt civilised world, when the oil is on the first place :(

under pic: Abu Ghraib prison was much feared in Saddam Hussein's era. I'm not so sure about that

[Nano]

At least this time they do it by themselves instead of paying someone else to do it :)

(Iraq, Afganistan, Latin America, etc...)

[BT]

and they should

[gunner]

Originally posted by trafficcashman
and they should

Amen

82nd Airborne Hooo Ahhhhhh
101st Air Assault Hooo Ahhhhh
1st Cav, 3rd Ranger Bat. , 10th Mountain Div.

[pxxx]

Crazy thing about this whole thing is that one of the arrested soldiers, Javal Davis, went to Abraham Clark High School, and that high school is in the town that i live in now. The news vans was all over his parents house, and talking to his family and friends. His parents house is around the corner from my house. All this was a big surprise and he is not the kind of guy that will do something like that. Hopefully they will get all these stuff figured out, and if he "is" involved with it, then justice must be served.

[Fire-Zone.net]

Abuse of power! :mad:

[pxxx]

Originally posted by Fire-Zone.net
Abuse of power! :mad:

Its a very bad thing.

[Fire-Zone.net]

:huh: :cry:

[Don Soporno]

I think before I really reply to anything I need to make my stance on this "war" known. I am all for liberating Iraq and I am all up for the elimination of Saddam and Bin Ladin but I do not agree with the way the Bush administration handles things or their alterior motives. I believe Bush is nothing more than a lier and an ex coke head who has a short fuse and is pissed someone tried to kill his dad. I also believe he is nothig more than a bible thumper who is willing to manipulate the world in any way he can to suit his beliefs. And we all know the only reason Bush declared the war over was because now the death benifits paid to the families is much much lower since its not war time..isnt that correct Venturi??

As for the abuse and pictures, I was also a Marine but lucky enough to not see any action and from the stories I was told from my Senior in boot camp and from my fellow Marines I am glad of that. The intensity of knowing that at any minute you could die in a hail of bullets comming at you fromt he guns of people who want noghtin more thant o spill your blood would push even the most down to earth person loose his or in this case her mind. I think the people involved int his should be punished but I dont lay the blame 100% on them, they shouldnt be there under the conditions they are. As soon as the war was declared over our people should have been brought home. I really do hope that this shows that Bush and his whole Admin have no care about the people of this country and are just out to line there own pockets.


NO MORE BUSH!!!!



Vote ANYONE BUT BUSH in 2004

[Fire-Zone.net]

Don Soporno

:worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

[pxxx]

I read somewhere that certain Congresss Man are pushing for the impeachment of George W. Bush before his term is up. I can guarantee you that he will not be re-elected, and if he is, my family and I are going to move to a different country. America is already not a safe place to live anymore.

[Izzy]

OK here are my thoughts, not like anybody cares but I felt like posting my thoughts anyways so nay nay nay :nyanya:

OK for one thing, it is fucked up what has happened BUT what about all the things that they have done to our ppl? Killing thousands and more of innocent people is not right either. There is no justice for that. I am not saying what our soldeirs are doin is right but what happened to us in 9/11 and what happened to the hostages they have had isn't right either. Even tho these prisoners didn't do that themselves, they woulda if they ever got the chance. Something needs to be done to the men who tortured these prisoners and these prisoners families should get something for what has happened to their family members in the prison. I know some may not agree with what I have said but ya gotta try to see both sides of what happened.

[pxxx]

Originally posted by Izzy
OK here are my thoughts, not like anybody cares but I felt like posting my thoughts anyways so nay nay nay :nyanya:

OK for one thing, it is fucked up what has happened BUT what about all the things that they have done to our ppl? Killing thousands and more of innocent people is not right either. There is no justice for that. I am not saying what our soldeirs are doin is right but what happened to us in 9/11 and what happened to the hostages they have had isn't right either. Even tho these prisoners didn't do that themselves, they woulda if they ever got the chance. Something needs to be done to the men who tortured these prisoners and these prisoners families should get something for what has happened to their family members in the prison. I know some may not agree with what I have said but ya gotta try to see both sides of what happened.

I see where you are coming from with your thoughts. You are basically saying that what happened to the prisoners is wrong, but shouldn't be treated as America committed the biggest crime EVER. When in the past, the system of government that these prisoner soldiers came from had done worse things to our people. That is how what you are trying to say came across to me. Hopefully i did not misunderstand what you were trying to say.

[tina]

i think war is hell anyway and that US soldiers are under a great pressure... but some of them must be sadist to make prisioners masturbate in line...

[Don Soporno]

Originally posted by tina
i think war is hell anyway and that US soldiers are under a great pressure... but some of them must be sadist to make prisioners masturbate in line...


sorry folks but that is just funny. I do feel sorry for them but when you stand and defend a man like Saddam, masturbating in line is mild compared to what you really need.


the chick in the pictures thats pointing at them looks like an old 70's game show host, she really needs her own show. Or maybe they should make her one of Barkers Beauties and she can come out in her fatigues and point at shit and grin really big like she just farted...

[venturi]

And we all know the only reason Bush declared the war over was because now the death benifits paid to the families is much much lower since its not war time..isnt that correct Venturi??
Honestly, it's been too long since I was in to remember factually how the death benefits change between "official war" vs hostile/combat environments. Personally though, if it were my son/daughter/spouse that got their face shot off by an RPG I wouldn't care what the "official" spin on the operation was.

[Don Soporno]

Originally posted by venturi
Honestly, it's been too long since I was in to remember factually how the death benefits change between "official war" vs hostile/combat environments. Personally though, if it were my son/daughter/spouse that got their face shot off by an RPG I wouldn't care what the "official" spin on the operation was.


of course us as citizens wouldnt care what the status of the event was if our loved ones got killed but Bush does and so does the government. They just didnt think about the fact that there are LOTS of other people in this country that realize there benifits have been GREATLY reduced simply because George Dubya Bush decided it was no longer a "war"

[gel]

Originally posted by Izzy
OK here are my thoughts, not like anybody cares but I felt like posting my thoughts anyways so nay nay nay :nyanya:

OK for one thing, it is fucked up what has happened BUT what about all the things that they have done to our ppl? Killing thousands and more of innocent people is not right either. There is no justice for that. I am not saying what our soldeirs are doin is right but what happened to us in 9/11 and what happened to the hostages they have had isn't right either. Even tho these prisoners didn't do that themselves, they woulda if they ever got the chance. Something needs to be done to the men who tortured these prisoners and these prisoners families should get something for what has happened to their family members in the prison. I know some may not agree with what I have said but ya gotta try to see both sides of what happened.


What does Iraq have to do with 9/11? There has never been any evidence that Iraq had anything to do with 9/11.

Don't lump all muslims together. Actions taken by Muslim extremists have nothing to do with Iraq. Remeber Iraq was a secular goverment.

Our reasons for going to war in Iraq have nothing to do with the "War on Terrorism"

I think we had just reasons to remove Sadam from power but they had nothing to do with terrorism.

[gel]

i don't know if anyone remembers this from Psych 101 in college. I had completely forgotten about until I saw it again one of the Sunday morning news shows.

http://www.prisonexp.org/

It really gives you incite on how abuses like this can happen.


Here's a NY times article talking about it more in depth.
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/06/international/middleeast/06PSYC.html